Ben wrote, in response to Ray:
> Ray, You say that
>
> "Money does not define value, simply economic value. To say that the
> wealthy in society are the most valuable, productive, imaginative or
> disciplined runs counter to any experience that I have ever had. They may
Well said, well said (to reveal my biases early in the message)!
> 1- America is rich in culture, to the point of being inclusive of a number
> of cultures, yet it was conceived as a "commerical republic." The whole
We do have a number of cultures represented within our midst. However,
there are indications that many of the participants from non-mainstream
cultures don't feel comfortable expressing their culture in our society.
Besides, I don't think this is what Ray is (importantly) writing about.
> expansion of cultural ideas. The arts have not become less important to
> Americans. Perhaps the shape and form of art has changed, but it's
> importance is still evident.
I need some help here. I lived in a small town (~40,000 inhabitants) in
Europe for a couple of years (years ago), and I was impressed with the
ease with which I could see people's artistic attempts to express
something about the world, whether it be music, live theater, painting, or
whatever. Some of it was due to their historical roots (they do obviously
have more Gothic or Baroque architecture than we do in the USA, although
they had to rebuild much of it within the last 50 years), but a fair
amount of it was contemporary or avant-garde work. It was very refreshing
to be in an environment in which one could take casual (and also more
serious) advantage of that, and it helped provide a balance (or a
creative tension) to this engineer's day job. If nothing else, it helped
me think about life in a variety of ways past the mechanistic.
We obviously have some great cultural/artistic talent in the USA, but I
don't see the prevalence I did there nor that I saw when I was younger.
(For example, I see less, not more, training for orchestral [string]
musicians today. Furthermore, I see [in general] less really avant-garde
artistic effort, at least in music, than I did in Europe; that tells me a
bit that we are less likely to look to music as an expression of current
impressions of reality and more like a museum of past impressions.)
My problem is that I can't tell how much of the the temporal change I see
is really geographical. When I was growing up, I lived on the opposite
coast, for example.
> The basic virtues I enjoy in myself and in others are:
>
> - Intelligence
> - Competence
> - Productivity
>
> And where these three virtues are found in people, you'll also find people
> who are making a pretty good living.
I know you are speaking in generalities, but I only have to look at some
teachers and artists to find what I would consider counter-examples,
unless you define productivity circularly as the ability to make money.
Ben and Ray, keep up the dialog; I find I learn from both of you.
Regards,
Bill
-- Bill Harris Hewlett-Packard Co. R&D Engineering Processes Lake Stevens Division domain: billh@lsid.hp.com M/S 330 phone: (425) 335-2200 8600 Soper Hill Road fax: (425) 335-2828 Everett, WA 98205-1298
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