Those interested to learn from about dis~course ( that was an attempt at
humour) might like to first to familiarize themselves that these words
below apportioned between Socrates and Gorgias are but figments of the
imagination of another person called Plato. Plato saw, felt, and
appreciated then acted wisely upon what happened to Socrates his beloved
teacher (that he had chosen to 'die' to uphold the search for contemporary
'cure') and set up a school in the seclusion of woods around Athens which
became the foundation and an abiding model among western models of all
university education and teaching/learning dialogue. It was called the
'Academy'. In this you can find both the shortness in longness and the
longness in shortness, a dying art.
I wrote a letter to my old teacher Plato, it was about what I think may be
happening on this list of recent late...¦ and this moment. Kindly he sent
me this reply from his own digest list archive. Worthy of a read I assure
you. (Doubters stop here)
Dear Andrew,
Thank you for your caring letter, and Yes, I have seen from Mt. Olympus
with interest how the wheel turns both 'repeatedly' and 'recursively'
among you. We once had a similar experience I share and you must quote
from the standard text verbatim, lest I send a thunderbolt down upon your
head. ~~~~~~
Cordially,
Plato
"Socrates (said): I suppose Gorgias, that like me you must have been
present at many arguments, and have observed how difficult the parties
find it to define exactly what the subject is which they have taken in
hand and to come away from their discussion mutually enlightened; what
usually happens is that, as soon as they disagree and one declares the
other to be mistaken or obscure in what he says, they lose their temper
and accuse one another of speaking from motives of personal spite and in
an endeavour to score a victory rather than to investigate the question at
issue; and sometimes they part on the worst possible terms, after such an
exchange of abuse that the bystanders feel vexed on their own account that
they ever thought it worth their while to listen to such people. You may
wonder why I am saying this, It is because what you are saying now does
not appear to me quite consistent with what you said at first...¦I am
afraid that if I probe the matter further you may suppose my purpose is
not so much to elucidate the subject as to win a verbal victory over you.
If you are the same sort of person as me I will willingly go on
questioning you; otherwise I will stop...¦"
SNIP
Socrates: Come then, you say you understand the art of oratory and can
make orators of others. What is the object with which oratory is
concerned? Weaving for example is concerned with the production of
clothes, is it not?
Gorgias. Yes
Socrates. And music with the creation of melodies?
Gorgias. Yes
Socrates. My word, Gorgias your answers are an absolute miracle of
brevity, I must say.
Gorgias. Yes, I think I am pretty good at brevity, Socrates.
Socrates. You are indeed. Well, answer now in the same way about oratory.
What is it that oratory is the knowledge of?
Gorgias. Speech.
Socrates. What sort of speech Gorgias? The kind that tells the sick how they
must live in order to get well?
Gorgias. No.
Socrates. Then oratory is not concerned with every kind of speech?
Gorgias. Certainly not.
Socrates. But would you say it makes men good at speaking?
Gorgias. Yes.
Socrates. And presumably good at thinking about the subjects on which it
teaches them to speak?
Gorgias. Of course.
Socrates. Now does medicine, which we mentioned just now, make men good at
thinking and speaking about the sick?
Gorgias. Necessarily.
Socrates. So it appears that medicine too is concerned with speech?
Gorgias. Yes.
~~~~[And through this his way Socrates enlightens Gorgias to reveal to us
that the product of 'oratory' is to 'create' 'conviction'. The subject of
this 'conviction' is what is 'right and wrong'. Socrates asks Gorgias if
there is such a thing as 'knowing', and it is agreed that there is such a
thing. And such a thing as 'believing'? Yes.Then the question becomes, are
they different? Yes. So conviction has two ways about it, one engenders
'knowledge' and the other 'belief without knowledge'.]
All from, Plato. The Gorgias (Dialogue). Translator. Walter Hamilton
Master of Magdalene College, Oxford.
A final word or a hundred if I may?
I asked Mr. Plato for some kind advice on how the arts might reinforce
learning. But you must not be upset if you discover in these words the
same words you have found here before. Why? Because
allthatyouthinkyouseeisthejoinedupnessofwholeness.
"Splendid. Education, then, is a matter of correctly disciplined feelings
of (both) pleasure and pain. But in the course of life the effect wears
off. And in many respects is lost altogether...¦;-( ~~~~ Now, there is a
theory- it runs like this, virtually all young things find it impossible
to keep their bodies still and their tongues quiet. They are always trying
to move around and cry out, some jump and skip and do a mind of gleeful
dance while others produce all sorts of noises.~~~~ (in) we humans being
sensitive to both rhythm and harmony order and disorder can enjoy both.
They are chorus leaders who stimulate us to movement, making us combine to
sing and dance." (The etymology of "chorus" is playfully represented in
Greek as from "chara" to charm, delight and cause joy).
All Translated quotes in this section by T.J. Saunders,
Prof. Greek at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne and also Visiting Member
of the Inst. For Advanced Study at Princeton and Visiting Fellow elsewhere.
One of his avowed interests is 'the cinema ;-)'
Thank you for your patience in reading this if you did.
Best wishes
Andrew Campbell
--Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <Richard@Karash.com> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <http://www.learning-org.com>
"Learning-org" and the format of our message identifiers (LO1234, etc.) are trademarks of Richard Karash.