It appears that we are looking at two aspects of the same question.
At de Lange looking for the origin and Doc saying it was always there.
I read Douglas Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden
Braid" many years ago and there are a few quotes that I have kept with
me these many years, the relevant (to this discussion) one being:
{You can't go on defending your pattern of reasoning forever. There
comes a point when faith takes over.}
Doc, are you saying that there was never a beginning or an end,
subscribing more to the oscillating universe theory? This is heavily
supported in Hofstadter's book, though I believe he refers to it as
'Recursion'. Classic examples are in Eschers later works, also in
Hofstadters contrivances between Achilles, the Tortoise, and the Crab.
At, what is your theory? Is there an origin to find? Although I
thoroughly enjoy the Metaphorical Fugue (apologies to Hofstadter) in
your posting I have to say I personally subscribe to the recursion
theory, that all structure is a development on chaos and the more
developed the structure, the more chaotic it is (or appears, when
observing the interactions required to support the structure).
As an aside do either of you think it possible to have an origin, but
no end? As a line in space that extends infinitely in one direction?
At writes:
<Those who believe in God will say that God is the origin. But God
<said that He images himself in His Creation. So the believers will
<also have to find the origin in His image, namely Creation. Thus they
<will have to do exactly what the atheists will also be doing.
(incidentally, most Christians are taught NEVER to ask of Gods'
origin)
If the answer to my last question is no, then we must make a choice
based on our faith or the lack thereof. If the answer is yes, then we
have the fundamental block of faith established.
I look at this way; human babies are not created. They are a form of
life that develops from the union of two organism (is this a good
example of being-becoming?). Is (was) life then ever created? Or
merely a constant state of being-becoming?
Is all this to heavy for this list?
JHC
--JAMES_H_CARRINGTON@HP-Chelmsford-om1.om.hp.com
Learning-org -- An Internet Dialog on Learning Organizations For info: <rkarash@karash.com> -or- <http://world.std.com/~lo/>