On 15 Jul 99, at 7:20, Artur F Silva wrote:
> I am not sure if I fully agree with you, Peter. I think you are
> extrapolating from "oral communication" to "written communicating", and
> then to "communicating in a mailing list". Let me try to clarify what I
> mean.
I'm sure reasonable people can disagree. I love the two feet concept by
the way.
I disagree, however on the issue of outcomes and effects. To keep it
short.
First, crap crowds out substance. That, for example, is why this is a
moderated list - I don't think that' s really disputable.
> More: we can take from Open Space, something like the "rule of two feet",
> and call it the "rule of one click". If I opened one mail and I am not
> interested in the content, or have no time to read it now, I close the
> message (one click). Sometimes I discover latter on that the thread is
> interesting and can go back to my own Archives. A more radical application
> of the "rule of two feet" is called "the unsubscribe rule". I can always
> unsubscribe, create my own list, and nurture it, and stop complaining and
> pressuring in the old list.
Those are certainly options. But that's not exactly how it all works. The
bottom line is that where there are high volume long posters, there is a
reduction in diversity, which leads to a downward spiral.
> >For me, long posters also do
> >themselves a disservice because they are less effective in communicating
> >their ideas if lots of people bypass their posts.
>
> I have heard that idea lots of times; but if it is so, why worry? Long
> posts will be "punished" by their own length. The question is that long
> posts, like long books, some times have superb ideas one can't miss. "'A
> la recherche du temps perdu" (by the way the best novel of this century,
> IMHO) has seven volumes of compact, difficult to follow writing.
I agree, but here's some questions one needs to ask. Why, to whom are we
trying to communicate with? If we want to communicate with the six people
that will read a 20,000 word post, then fine. If one wants to communicate
with the people who don't have time to wade through that, then one must
alter one's approach, yes?
In addition, what is the effect on others and on the community? You seem
to believe it doesn't have an adverse effect, and I obviously do.
Monopolizing through contribution has a controlling effect and a damping
effect on others, whether it be in person or in email.
I can't prove that to you at this point. But I have also been on line
before one could access the internet, and also moderate lists, and there
is NO question in my mind that there are adverse effects of certain onlne
behaviors on list servers of this type.
Also, a note on your ibm experience, etc. This list is not essential or
required, for attaining a specific work goal. That makes it completely
different than what you experience in internal communication via email.
> I fully agree with you in this point. May I recall another
> "presupposition": "the meaning of the communication is the response you
> get". If a long post "receives" lots of answers doesn't this mean that its
> author has NOT done a "disservice" to him/herself neither to the list?
That's a good point. However, almost NO posts on this or many lists get
"lots of answers", unless you figure five people responding out of 2,000
"a lot". i don't.
> Notice your words: "shut up", "airtime", "group settings" - you are mainly
> talking of ORAL communication in group meetings. There you are 100%
> write. Time can't be enlarged; the time used by the loudy people will not
> allow others to communicate.
I'm sorry but I don't see the relevance of this. Time isn't enlarged
online either, except for those that have nothing else to do, but that is
also no different in oral coom/meetings.
I recall a person who basically destroyed meetings face to face, shut down
conversation (people eventually gave up because of the volume), and in
fact this person could and occasionally did expand time in the meetings to
fit the entire day.
I'm going to let y'all in on a thought. When the signal to noise is low
and delete keys are used a lot, most people will get in the habit of not
adding signal, and will actually miss signal.
In short, they turn off and tune out...again leaving the stage to the
wordier folks.
..
> I think that in this 2 to 3 weeks we have been discussing a lot about "how
> to moderate this list"; at the same time this has a side effect - many of
> our major contributors, that we appreciate, and are used to, are
> participating much less, because they fell rejected (by a minority, I
> think). But those posts ARE NOT being replaced by some more "concrete"
> stuff. Only by more complaints and more "moderating suggestions".
It takes time to reverse a trend on the list..usually months. Case in
point. When I started the performance management list, I contributed a
great deal, as did one or two others. Over time, I basically dropped out
for a number of reasons as a participant. It's taken a fair while, but the
number of GOOD posts increased a lot, and I attribute that to people no
longer sitting back to read the wisdom of...well one or two people (one of
them being me).
Finally there is no doubt you will find that many non-posters on this list
are completely intimidated by the posts of the few high posters and do not
want to look stupid. Again, this is disenfranchising to many people, and
it HAS been mentioned by a few brave souls.
And double finally, if you want to talk about two feet, here's another way
of looking at it. If five or ten people want to set up specialized lists
for whatever reason, it can be done in five minutes, for free by anyone.
Call it the LONG POST Learning List, or the Essentialities discussion
list, or whatever anyone wants to do.
> If I myself may give a moderating suggestion: why are those moderating
> suggestions sent to the list and not only to the moderator? Can't we go
> back and discuss mainly the real issues (bot theoretical and practical) of
> LOs?
I haven't seen anything to do with moderating. Only a good discussion of
the effects of certain behaviors on others.
I can think of nothing MORE REAL than discussing how communication
approaches help and hinder learning, in person, online, etc.
...
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