Steve, you wrote:
>Help me understand.
I will try. Helping you to understand is also helping myself to
understand.
>What do you mean by "pressure"?
>
>In "dialectic" discourse, a "thesis" is often countered with its
>"antithesis": is such countering "pressure"?
>
>Suppose someone puts forward as "truth" the applicability of
>"entropy" to human organizations.
Steve,
As I used it, I thought of pressure as trying to suppress something. You
may not want to suppress but discuss freely, yet it looks differently to
me.
A dialectic discourse is a good example. I haven't seen yet that the
relation of thesis and antithesis is of the kind "taking a
statement/concept.. for either truth of error". The aim of a dialectic
discourse is to reach a synthesis, which is hardly possible when either
thesis or antithesis is simply false. (I have heard a saying: The opposite
of a simple truth is false, the opposite of a great truth is another great
truth.)
I see thesis and antithesis as mutually dependent - each of them is
incomplete without the other (mercy and justice for example, or freedom
and determination of choice). There is tension between the two ("entropic
force") which drive the discourse ("entropic flux"). But for there is no
simple answer, the discourse will reach a bifurcation point, where either
the synthesis emerge ("emergence") or thesis and antithesis fall apart as
incomensurable entities ("immergence").
>Suppose a listener or reader counters by saying that this thesis,
>put forward as "truth," is actually an "error." Is such countering
>pressure?
Yes, I think it is. The target of an antithesis is - despite the word -
not anti-thesis, but another concept with it's own right. The motivation
for an antithesis to rise may be a sense of incompleteness, even error of
thesis, but the antithesis in not simple negation (Communism is not simple
Anit-Capitalism). Negation is suppression.
>I prize this saying of Edmund Burke
>
>"He who wrestles with me strengthens my nerve and sharpens
>my skill: my antagonist is my helper."
This saying reflects a lot of our conversation, which I do appreciate. I
am afraid that you are a better antagonist to me than I am for you, sorry
;-). I am only a little bit puzzled what a sharpened skill should be.
Sounds to me like an idea created by entropy production.
>Pressure in discussion and debate strengthens and sharpens,
>perhaps?
Steve, what are you doing here? I didn't expect YOU to offer this
statement. Really! I mean, pressure is a physical concept, isn't it? When
you open the door for pressure in discussion..., I mean, this opens the
door for all that nonsense like time pressure, group pressure, pressure
groups... Blood pressure, ok this makes sense, but relating mental stress
with mental pressure, this should rise your mental temperature to the
boiling point. What would Einstein say?? "Sinister!".
Liebe Gruesse,
Winfried
--"Winfried Dressler" <winfried.dressler@voith.de>
Learning-org -- Hosted by Rick Karash <rkarash@karash.com> Public Dialog on Learning Organizations -- <http://www.learning-org.com>