Replying to LO25176 --
Hi Judy
Anyway I would like to share with you this issue of mathematics and truth.
What I am going to share with you is in no way related to you as a person
but rather to your comments which are separate from your being.
It is non-sense to believe that mathematics is the truth, and I will share
with you why.
Math's is a model created by man it is his thoughts put down in symbolic
form (numbers). It is a model of mans concepts of numbers (and their
application) meaning it is an invariant factor. Which is only invariant
for a number of parameters. (Invariant means unchanging) i.e. the sun rise
every day is an invariant factor.
Math's is only thinking about the universe it is not the universe. e.g.
what voluminous shape has an infinite area and a finite volume, 1/x
revolved about an x axis, so you see to say that math's is the truth is
just not the truth.
The parameter where math's stops working is the level where thoughts are
variables and they have bi-conditional relationships and multi process
capabilities, math's now ceases to be an invariant factor and can now be
classed as false. (because it is a useless model here, well actually
nobody has ever created mental maths)
This type of thinking not being able to separate ones thinking from the
thinker (which is were you have found yourself) is fraught with all sorts
of dangerous outcomes and claims.
Facts also might not be the truth because of the same things that I
mention above, this type of logic has the same problem. Is is a fact that
the sun rises every day?, well yes depends where you live. If you are on
some far away planet this might not be a fact or you live in Arctic in the
winter. The sun rising is an invariant factor and not the truth.
Remember it is how the human brain conceives things names them, ranks
them, uses JND (just noticeable differences) and thinks about them.
I trust you see my point very subtle but the most important thing we
should be aware of.
Math's is far from the truth
Kindest
gavin
Judy Tal wrote:
> Shalom Gavin,
> I wrote the following mail, as a reaction to your challenging questions.
> For some reason, I can't remember it being published. I'm sending in
> private, just to be sure.
> Judy
[Host's Note: It was published as LO25176. ..Rick]
>Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 14:06:26 +0300
>To: learning-org@world.std.com
>From: Judy Tal <judyt@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: Re: Evident Points, Hidden Points LO25157
>
>Shalom Gevin and LOers,
>
>Gevin, you wrote:
>>I would like to share with you, your truth is anything you believe or
>>choose it to be.
>Thank you. I would like to do the same, but first I'd like to clarify what
>is it that we're talking about:
>Looking, for example, at the following:
>>There are whole societies out there that believe they are embodiments of
>>their dead ancestors is this the truth
>This statement is True due to my experience - indeed many are believing so
>(I know some personally). I can't say wether their belief is true or not -
>I do not know if they are embodiments of their dead ancestors.
>>There are whole societies out there that believe democracy is evil ... is
>>this true
>Same here. It is true that many (too many, IMHO) find evil in what they
>call "democracy" (we are not going into precise definition of this term,
>are we?).
>Most of the examples in your list are dealing with various Theories, some
>of which I didn't meet yet. Hope I understood your point. But, this is
>different:
>>Are facts the truth
>Yes, facts are parts of TRUTH - instances that have become already. And I
>strongly agree with you that the facts visible to us depend on us. (hi
>Jan, you would say "you see what you want to see". I see that you rejoined
>the list ;-)).
>Now Gevin, you also mentioned mathematics:
>>Is mathematics the truth
>Definitely. This is so only because of the nature of mathematics - no big
>deal: mathematical theories are NOT dealing with our Reality.
>Mathematicians invent their own (abstract and formal) reality - it has
>much to do with our Reality in practice, but little to do with the TRUTH
>that is be-coming by our deeds. Mathematics is be-coming too.
>
>A few more words about "facts" and Turing's Machine:
>WHAT is this machine actually doing? It receives "facts" and "rules of
>inference" and "works out" new "facts" - conclusions. Turing's Machine
>does NOT question the validity of it's input. You can count on it's
>preciseness (a machine, after all) - it will provide you with accurate
>conclusions derived from what you fed it with - It shows what you want to
>see.
>So ... WHAT is it good for?
>>In my opinion, Truth with the capital T is hardly the truth, if you truly
>>believe what you believe is the truth that is fine but if you believe that
>>it is the Truth then this is hardly empowering in any sense except in some
>>truth or other that this is thesense of false security. By which we all
>>are bonded and in bondage.
>I believe in the existence of TRUTH (many capitals) - I also believe that
>capturing TRUTH is beyond my capabilities. And I'm delighted to read, in
>your following words that we agree on this ...:
>>There are more things between heaven and earth then all the beings could
>>imagine in perpetuity. Let alone those which some purport about some
>>spiritual truth. ( I might as well take Rudolph Steiner as my god)
>>Truly, if you find the Buddha on the road kill him.
>Pleeeease, spare me this one ;-))
>
>Shalom shalom,
>Judy
--Gavin Ritz <garritz@xtra.co.nz>
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